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----- Original Message -----
From: jalaledin@aol.com
To: thechurchofinterfaithchristians@yahoogroups.com ; cydc@peoplepc.com
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 5:30 PM
Subject: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] Thoughts on the Crucifixion

Beloveds:

I have been reading "Major Themes of the Quran" by the eminent scholar, Fazlur Rahman,  (1919-1988) and I came upon a paragraph which explained why in the Quran, the notion that Jesus was crucified is rejercted. He quotes the following verse from the Holy Quran:

"These people want to extinguish God's Light by blowing at it with their mouths,
but God will not have it otherwise except to complete His Light, even though the disbelievers dislike it." (9:32; also 61:8).

He then goes on to say:

"It is because of this basic line of thought concerning the final victory of good over evil that the Quran refers constantly to the vindication of Noah, who was saved from the flood; of Abraham, who was saved from fire; of Moses who was saved from Pharoah and his hordes; and of Jesus, who was saved from execution at the hands of the Jews (hence the rejection by the Quran of the crucifixion story)."

From my own perspective, as a Muslim, I have always questioned the notion of a Divine Human Sacrifice, which is why I am left with the conclusion that Jesus' return to the Father was as immaculate and miraculous as his birth.

The Quran, as you all know, still refers to Jesus (pbuh) as Messiah, so there is no rejection of his spiritual stature as a Savior, as was the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Any thoughts about this "divide" between Islam and Christianity?

Love and light,
Jalaledin
 

geoff BENNETT <credo@christianwriters.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:

From Rev Dr Geoff Bennett
 
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
 
Salvation is only through Christ.  We who are interfaith recognize all who accept Christ and seek in some way to honour and follow him.
 
People of all ages see Christ in a different light and from totally different perspectives.  They have also interpreted the meaning of Christ's death in totally different ways.
 
I rather like Paul Fiddes suggestion that the varied theologies of the death of Christ depend on one's interpretation of sin.
The Jews saw sin as uncleaness, defilement and impurity which needed to be washed away, so sacrifice was symbolized as a washing, sprinkling, bathing and cleansing from sin.  The early Christians saw the death of Christ in this light - especially the writer to the Hebrews in the Christian Scriptures.
 
The early church saw sin as oppression by hostile powers - the devil and his demons.  Therefore the early church saw his death as a victorious battle in which Christ overcame the hostile powers, "leading captivity captive" and "binding the strong man" according to Matthew.
 
In the early middle ages sin was seen as corruption bringing mortality and death.  Accordingly, Christ's death destroyed human death for all, so the resurrection and raising to new life became the focal point.
 
Later Medieval thought envisaged sin as the disturbance of God's order, the enslavement of individuals by the devil, and total chaos of God's world.  Now the death of Christ became a ransom from Slavery and the "satisfaction of the Divine honour".  The Debt was paid to the Devil.
 
By the 12th Century sin was conceived as a lack of love, especially in an age when courtly love was the predominent poetry of Europe.  Christ became the champion who jousted with death for the love of the church.  His death was a demonstration of divine love and gained the satisfaction of divine honour.
 
The Reformation saw sin as lawlessness.  The ten commandments and the "Royal Law" of God had been breached.  A Holy God needed to show His Justice by punishing lawbreakers.  The Reformers (especially Luther and Calvin) saw Christ as the substitute who paid the penalty for sin.  He suffered in human form to appease the anger and the wrath of God, and appeased God's Justice by paying the penalty for all humanity.
 
The Age or Enlightenment - Post Renaisance period saw sin as falling short of moral standards.  It dealt with sin according to ethical and philosophical preogatives and saw sin as ethical failure.  Thus Christ's death challenged human beings to change their behaviour, and brought them to God in repentence with a change of heart.
 
Nineteenth Century Christians saw sin from the Reformer's viewpoint.  Sin was a breaking of God's Law, so Christ died as a substitute for our sins by paying the penalty demanded by the Heavenly Judge. 
 
The right wing evangelical American church still emphases the "substitutionary atonement" theory of the Cross.  Radical Twenty-first century theologians, however,  understand sin as an existential imbalance.  It is alienation both from God and from other people.  It is a failure in personal relationships, an estrangement from our inner being, a failure to realize our own true potential, an estragement from reality, and a falling short of God's intention for life.  Such thought brings about a new concept of the death of Christ.  It is through his "atonement" that "healing" takes place.  We can become true human beings, we can "come into community" so to speak.  The emphasis is on "reconciliation", restoring relationships between man and God, and restoring of one's self.
 
The crucifixion of Christ not only affected humanity, but also affected God the Father.  Paul says that somehow "God was in Christ" reconciling the world to Himself."  To me sin is about loneliness, rejection, withdrawal from reality through alcohol or drugs, bitterness and self-hatred among many others.  I see the death of Christ as affecting God the Father.  He in some indescribable and incomprehensible way is present in our suffering, He understands isolation and rejection.
 
The death of Christ - the Atonement - is best understood as God's agonizing consent, with deep pain in His heart, to the outworking of sins into their natural result.  In some strange way God abandoned His son, Jesus, who cried "My God, My God, WHY have you forsaken ME?" in order that He (God) should be the Father of ALL abandoned, forsaken, rejected and dying people in this world of ours. 
 
That is why the death of Christ is an essential part of my faith, and why I believe He can "Save to the uttermost, all who come to God by Him."
 
Rev Geoff Bennett

 

From:  cesar joanino <enlightedat@yahoo.com>
Date:  Sat Aug 2, 2003  6:06 pm
Subject:  Re: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] Thoughts on the Crucifixion
Rev Bennett Sir
 
For me salvation is in all faith and the recognition of one God in all Religions..God has a plan for us and that is evolution.
 
The term Chrestos and Christos came from the mysteries.There the word chrestos was used to designate a disciple on probation.when the candidate had passed through chrestos condition he was anointed as and become a christos."the way or the Path".
 
I am the way said Jesus after he becomed the christos...Christ therefore is a state or condition..a progressive awakening of the soul..Jesus had completely awakened this principles in himself and therefore known Jesus, the christ.
 
In my opinion the death of jesus served as an example of mans ignorance and work of the dflesh upon them..whom we call evil.a victory for himself for he conqured death by resurrecting again...as a beleiver of karma i would rather say that wenas human beings must fought our way back to our creator by knowledge faith and works..we are not totally justified by gods and if so we all go to heaven instantly..
 
One passage in the bible says that It so repented God that he created man..is there a God that repented because of his creation?i dont think so..For me the Lord jesus is an avatar an adept who choose to be in this world to teach humanity the wisdom of love..that ignorance of the law of God is the root of all suffering and evil.
 
He laid once again the foundation of salvation..and like other avatars that come before him  and that is Love and understanding..to all creation
 
Namaste
REv Joanino

 

From:  jalaledin@aol.com
Date:  Mon Aug 4, 2003  11:19 am
Subject:  God's repentance
In a message dated 8/4/2003 5:51:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, thechurchofinterfaithchristians@yahoogroups.com writes:


In that sense God "repented" that He had created man because of His evil and sin.  But in the end, God showed His love in that while we were yet sinners, Christ as God's Son, died for us and rose triumphant.  God does care and love us each one.

Beloveds:

This concept of God's repentance illustrates how easily we see God in our own image (anthropomorphism). God made us in His Image but to make any assertion about what God thinks, feels etc is to Make God in Our Image. That is where I struggle with Christian theology.

    When I hear Christians speaking for God, I have to ask the question: How can they possibly know what is in the Mind of God? The only way we know anything about God is by His revelations through His Prophets or from those who have achieved mystical Union with Him. In the case of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the revelation was transmitted through the Archangel Gabriel.

Was there a Prophet who claimed that the Messiah would die for the sins of humanity? Did Jesus (pbuh) himself claim this? Or was this a later explanation of the event of his passing?

Sura 4:157-158 in the Holy Quran reveals:

"That they said (in boast)
"We killed Christ Jesus
The son of Mary,
The Apostle of God";-
But they killed him not,
Nor crucified him,
But so it was made
To appear to them,
And those who differ
Therein are full of doubts,
With no (certain) knowledge
But only conjecture to follow,
For a surety
They killed him not : -

Nay, God raised him up
Unto Himself; and God
Is Exalted in Power, Wise;-"

This is Yusuf Ali's translation of these verses. The other translations are almost identical. Hence as Muslims, we believe in the immaculate conception of Jesus as well as his immaculate resurrection, but not of the kind Christians speak of.

Jesus was a Prophet of God. Favorite Son, if you insist on his Sonship. God, Our Father, would never have foresaken him, for without Him, Jesus would never have walked this earth.

I share this only to clarify the Muslim response to the assertions that are being made here about Jesus and about God. As we Muslims like to say, "Only God knows."
Love and light,
Jalaledin

 

From:  "Ernest A. Steadman" <steadman2002@charter.net>
Date:  Mon Aug 4, 2003  12:37 pm
Subject:  Re: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] God's repentance
Aha!, Jalaledin.  I have caught you in a "syntax", much the same way that Conservative Christians have based their own understanding (in error) of the Holy Scriptures.
 
Sura 4:157-158 in the Holy Quran reveals:

"That they said (in boast)
"We killed Christ Jesus
The son of Mary,
The Apostle of God";-
But they killed him not,
Nor crucified him,
But so it was made
To appear to them,
And those who differ
Therein are full of doubts,
With no (certain) knowledge
But only conjecture to follow,
For a surety
They killed him not : -

Nay, God raised him up
Unto Himself; and God
Is Exalted in Power, Wise;-"
 
I want you to read this one more time, and see what I have seen, what the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. 
 
That Jesus did die (if viewed from the flesh) but Allah has revealed to you, in your understanding, that Jesus did not die (if viewed from the Spirit) because Allah is all powerful and would not allow that to happen.  And, it derides those who were not in attendance of the crucifixion, in an offhanded remark, even saying to those who were there, "But so it was made to appear to them." (again, reaffirming that it DID HAPPEN). 
 
This passage does not, I repeat, does not preclude that there was a crucifixion, only that Jesus never truly died at the hands of the Hebrew because His soul was always in the hands of Allah, as we all are.
 
Think about it.
 
Rev. Steadman

 

From:  jalaledin@aol.com
Date:  Mon Aug 4, 2003  9:34 pm
Subject:  Quran & Crucifixion
Beloved Rev. Steadman:

Very interesting interpretation. So, you are saying that although on the human level, this may have appeared as a crucifixion, it was much more than that on
the spiritual plane. Which would also answer the notion that God did not "sacrifice" his Son but resurrected him, even though the Christian "report" of his death described specific wounds etc.

That is both wondrous and "immaculate."

I still contend that Jesus did not die for our sins, but was called up to Heaven for the glorification of Allah.. If he ever spoke the words "Father why hast Thou foresaken me?", he would have received an immediate and wondrous Divine response.

What an intriguing possibility.
Love and light,
Jalaledin

 

----- Original Message -----
From: jalaledin@aol.com
To: thechurchofinterfaithchristians@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 8:57 AM
Subject: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] Crucifixion and the 40 days

In a message dated 8/5/2003 5:52:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, thechurchofinterfaithchristians@yahoogroups.com writes:


When Jesus was dying on the Cross he cried out "My God, my God, Why have you forsaken me?"  


Beloved Rev. Bennett:

Just curious to know how this information might have been conveyed to the Gospel authors. Would Jesus have cried this out aloud, for all to hear?
I always wonder about the authenticity of this and other reports.
It must be the "critical thinker" in me.

I also always wondered whether Jesus actually spoke with the Apostles of his 40 days of temptation? Would he have done this? Would he have said, I too have been tempted? This is what happened....

Love and light,
Jalaledin

 

From:  "revshawn" <revshawn@attitude.com>
Date:  Tue Aug 5, 2003  11:09 am
Subject:  Re: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] Crucifixion and the 40 days
Those are GREAT questions My Friend.
 
Concerning the temptation of Christ, and wheather or not he conveyed the experiance to the Appostles, I too have wondered this. It seems to me, that the only Written account from the Gospel writers in this regard is an encouragment from Jesus to his followers "....In the world, you will have troubles. ..........for I have conquered the world......" I will have to go look up exactly where that verse is but, I will get it to you a little later as I am busy just now. Or, maybe one of our members would be good enough to locate that for you.
 
~Shawn

 

From:  "geoff BENNETT" <credo@christianwriters.fsnet.co.uk>
Date:  Tue Aug 5, 2003  5:25 pm
Subject:  Re: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] Crucifixion and the 40 days
Hi Shawn,
 
John 16:33 says, "In this world you will have trouble.  But take heart! I have overcome the world."  These were the words of Jesus to his disciples.
 
Incidentally, a message to Jalaledin.  The words of Jesus are actually recorded by Mark in the Aramaic language as "Eloi, Eloi, Lama sabachthani?" which Mark says means, "My God, My God, Why have you forsaken me?"  
 
 It is also recorded that some bystanders thought Jesus was calling Elijah.  But the centurian who heard the cry and saw how Jesus died, exclaimed, "Surely this man was the Son of God".(Mark 15:39)
 
(See Mark 25:34-39).
 
Best wishes,
 
Rev Geoff Bennett

 

From:  "Ernest A. Steadman" <steadman2002@charter.net>
Date:  Tue Aug 5, 2003  3:36 pm
Subject:  Re: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] Quran & Crucifixion
Rev. High Priest Winzer, and others, especially Rev. Dr. Bennett, have given you some of the best answers to your questions (to date), Jalaledin, as I would expect from those who speak with the authority and understanding of the Holy Spirit (God's voice).
 
I'm going to shock a lot of people who read this, including many of my members, but I tell you this, Jesus did not die for my sins!  Jesus died for the sins of the Hebrew.  He died to fulfill the Hebrew prophesy which the Creator had given them to know when His Messiah would walk among them and reveal the Creator's wish for His creation.
 
From the moment Jesus died on the cross, THAT INSTANT, mankind was justified before Allah.  It began a three day journey of the One, the Son of God, that the Creator could not take.  He could not die, and therefore could not follow His Son.  Hence, why Jesus cried out, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me!"
 
During those three days and nights, Jesus taught to those, even unto the days of Noah, the way to salvation.  And, on the third day, rose from the grave to proclaim the final fulfillment of the Law, the completion of His Ministry to the Hebrew and the beginning of His Ministry to the rest of the world (we know this from His words, "...and other sheep I have..." and from the historical record of other societies now in evidence.  Why even Mohammed met a man in the mountains who had a long, flowing white robe, who said he was looking for his lost sheep.).
 
Jesus was the "sacrifice" to bring an end to the written law and place it within each and every one of us in the form of the Holy Spirit.  His body died, but He was quickened in the Spirit, and then His body was brought back to life.  It was the visualization that every one saw, and as recorded in the Quaran, but argued only to the extent that God did not let the Prophet Jesus die, be extinguished.  HE LIVED AGAIN IN THE FLESH, BUT LIVED ALWAYS IN THE SPIRIT.
 
Beware, Jalaledin, there are those in other countries who are now contemplating becoming my first Christian/Muslims, dedicating their Mosques to the worship of Allah and the outward following of Christ.
 
Rev. Steadman
 

 

From:  "revshawn" <revshawn@attitude.com>
Date:  Tue Aug 5, 2003  4:21 pm
Subject:  Re: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] Quran & Crucifixion
Nothing shoking in that statement to me Rev. Steadman. Let me refer a book to everyone. This is a book on which after reading, I spent two days in fasting and prayer. GNOSTICIM by Stephen A. Hoeller.
 
That book confirmed all I has ever "felt" was true about Christ but, was not allowed to express durring my Catholic days. As I was reading it, I was taken back to a memory of myself arguing with a catochist, at the age of ten, that The Trinity consited of God (the father) God (the son) and God (the holy spirit/ Mother). The catochist in question, asked where I had been to church before, and I explained to her the we were "indian", to use my exact words. She was so upset, that she had asked the Priest to come and talk to me the following week to "educate me" on The Trinity. Sheesh, free thinkers are just not allowed in ANY mainstream church!
 
~Shawn
 

revshawn <revshawn@attitude.com> wrote:

Jesus was (in my estimation) the Son of the Creator God. You can call God whatever you wish, for there is still only one God responsible for creation. Jesus` mission was to impart salvific Gnosis to a sleeping race (humans). We slept in ignorance until the Messiah arrived, and showed to us, the path to the Creators bosom, where, in fact, we belong to begin with.
Yet, many still insist on living the life of the unenlightened, and instead of seeking the Creator, to awaken empathy for their fellow man, to strive for true unity, allow ignorance to persist.
The Spirit of the Messianic enlightener has been here (Earth) many times, and each time, some are awakened, and others would rather sleep. Tis the slumberous among us, which cause division, and hatred, instead of the unity and brotherhood which God has tried to show us, through many Teachers.
Knowing the nature of man, Jesus had to first awaken us, and then cast his flesh to the way all men must travel (death), before being resurected by the Awsome Power of He who Created all things. This Power resided in Jesus himself, as he is the Son of God.
There are so many mysteries of God that we shall not be allowed to discovered until we are with God at the end of Earthly life. For now, instead of squabling over non -essentials of our faith, I am content to have my Gnostic Awakening, and share when appropriate.
 
In Christ Through Wicca,
 
Rev. Shawn

 

From:  cesar joanino <enlightedat@yahoo.com>
Date:  Tue Aug 5, 2003  2:48 pm
Subject:  Re: [thechurchofinterfaithchristians] Quran & Crucifixion
Well Rev Shawn i agree about the gnostic Christ...God`s mysteries remain with us always until we were able to liberate ourselves and earn our place in the great hierarchy to which we belongs.
 
There is a point in you Jalaledin about Jesus not dying for our sins but instead showing the way to attain oneness with the creator...sometimes it is not so easy to accept some doctrines this atonement is for me a puzzle basing from what i understand about the esoteric jesus...i just leave it like that...the lost books have a lot to say this and the book about the creation of universes
 
Light and blessings
 
Rev Joanino
 

Blessings Jalaledin

 
In my opinion this repentance of God pertain to the Freewill that has been acquired by man after they eat at the fruit of good and evil which in reality is the spiritual form of enlightment to become one of them of being Gods to know good and evil...as we all know the serfent refresent wisdom an awakening of spiritual virtue...which come from god and later on shared by the elohim to humanity thru adam and eve."behold the man becoming one of us to know good and evil and now lest he put forth his handand and take also of the tree of life and eat and live foreever"...Image is something different from constituent as far as i understand it...for inner image refresent the divine spirit that  is in every man..that comes from allah or god.
 
What has transpired during the cruxifiction is the physical body of jesus the vehicle to which christ reside..they had killed jesus but not the christ..for there is a difference between jesus and the christ...later own he was resurrected..both body and spirit..the bottom line is the christ did not die  but rather continue to live in our hearts.
 
Jesus Christ know that he will die for this since the beggining that the select to come back on earth and shed the light and message of our father in heaven...about salvation that everyone that beleived in him will have an eternal life.How?by following his teaching and putting them into practice..being guided by the holy spirit and not of the flesh.
 
Yes jalaledin only God knows..until the time we understand him...seek first the kingdom of heaven and all its righteoussness eill be added an to you......we must understand first earthly things before we understand heavenly things.....let the blessings of allah be with us always
 
Namaste
 
Rev Cesar Joanino
 

Dear Jalaledin,

 
Yes, you are right when you say we use anthropomorphism to describe the way God thinks.  No one can know except by Divine Revelation - you are quite right.
 
The Hebrew Scriptures do foretell the suffering of God's servant in Isaiah 52 and 53, and speak of the Messiah's (the Christ's) suffering and death in a remarkable way.
 
The New Testament writers, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each record Jesus' teaching, and he constantly foretold His death.  He said that He gave His life as a ransom for many.
 
They also each discuss His death in detail, with almost a third of the four Gospels dealing just with the last week of Jesus' life and death and resurrection.
 
When Jesus was dying on the Cross he cried out "My God, my God, Why have you forsaken me?"   He clearly felt the loneliness and forsakenness that is the lot of so many of us.  Yet the Christian Scriptures teach that somehow, "God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself."   This is one of those paradoxes that seem to contradict each other.  God both forsook His son, yet was there "in Him" at the same time.  That is why Christians believe God understands our suffering, pain, isolation and forsakenness - it is because God has in some way experienced the life of his creation.
 
Love and best wishes,
 
Rev Geoff Bennett